(with the same effects as if they were in the exe folder). path. Try reinstalling the program to fix this problem.". Changing the DLL search path could cause compatibility problems for Windows Rust programs that assume they can implicitly load DLLs in the current directory without explicitly configuring their DLL search path. You signed in with another tab or window. Microsoft Update Catalog : KB4457144. Using the Windows Headers. And it will only work if you use LoadLibrary() to load DLLs. The winbase.h header defines GetDllDirectory as an alias which automatically selects the ANSI or Unicode version of this function based on the definition of the UNICODE preprocessor constant. To get extended error information, call My app uses the same libraries, but in VB.NET. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. Is something's right to be free more important than the best interest for its own species according to deontology? The directory to be added to the search path. LOAD_LIBRARY_SEARCH_USER_DIRS. If AddDllDirectory is used to add more than one For more information, see regarding this? LOAD_LIBRARY_SEARCH flags. AA . This Best Pr SetDllDirectory does "cascade" and thus will affect how dependent DLLs are loaded. Also, I'm quite new in the company so I still don't have a clear idea on what's going on. How to extract the coefficients from a long exponential expression? Your business came highly recommended, and I am glad that I found you! (Note that "installing" is not an option. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/api/libloaderapi/nf-libloaderapi-setdefaultdlldirectories. SetDllDirectory () is a fairly useless function, it will only help your DLLs find DLLs they need themselves. . This topic has been deleted. Should I include the MIT licence of a library which I use from a CDN? SetDefaultDllDirectories is first called with With the NativeLibrary class above, we can try to load a library using only two lines of code. Ackermann Function without Recursion or Stack. VS :. Not the answer you're looking for? If I move lib2.dll to "C:/test", it is found. @ Although this approach is suitable for straight-in landing minimums in every sense, why are circle-to-land minimums given? DirectXV4.2 DirectX (DirectX Repair). AddDllDirectory; RemoveDllDirectory; Edit: The download has disappeared from the above link, but is still available from the Microsoft Update Catalog : KB2533623. LOAD_LIBRARY_SEARCH flags, and directories added with If the function fails, the return value is zero. He has a code snippet for SetDllDirectory, but the argument is string[] paths. Today, I had to deal with an uncommon need. Yes, after installation it works well. Windows7, Windows Server2008R2, WindowsVista and Windows Server2008:To call this function in an application, use the You can load libraries after the program start only if the program is not "hard" linked against those and does not need them to start up. 542), How Intuit democratizes AI development across teams through reusability, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup. this Microsoft link. Add twoto your attack modifier deck. If the function succeeds, the return value is nonzero. Theoretically Correct vs Practical Notation. 3 D . Hi Tobias, thanks for the quick answer. Therefore, the only DLLs that will be loaded without bringing in a crate (or calling winapi APIs directly) will be those that were dynamically linked to as part of building. Is the nVersion=3 policy proposal introducing additional policy rules and going against the policy principle to only relax policy rules? LoadLibrary and SetDllDirectoryAddDllDirectory SetDefaultDllDirectories LOAD_LIBRARY_SEARCH_DEFAULT_DIRS(0x00001000) (Windows . The cookie returned by AddDllDirectory when the directory was added to the search path. because using delay-load in conjunction with SetDllLibrary seems to be a very simple way to solve your issue. If the function succeeds, the return value is nonzero. I want to install latest version of Atom (code editor) to my win-7 32 bit computer. To compile an application that uses this function, define _WIN32_WINNT as 0x0502 or later. But when I try to run my app, it says unable to locate the IBScanUltimate.DLL. https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh447159(v=vs.85).aspx, Specify the search path for DllImport in .NET. The process DLL search path applies only to the calling process and persists Furthermore, it modifies global state, so I suspect that it is best to call it as early as possible. On Windows, the application's directory is the application bundle, so this is the best place to put them. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms686203.aspx. I disagree. If you have a really good reason for putting the DLLs in a different directory, then you have a limited number of options. Check "man ld" and "man dyld" on Linux/Mac for details on how to influence the library loading at runtime. Installation went fine. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. I tried calling the SetDllDirectory(path) method with various locations that my app should have access to but I am keep getting "false". Dynamic-Link Library Search Order. Already on GitHub? This search There are two versions of these libraries, 32 and 64bit. What Is This Document? By clicking Sign up for GitHub, you agree to our terms of service and TITLE : Export dll not in exporters folder - SketchUp SDK - SketchUp Community . The text was updated successfully, but these errors were encountered: would this cause issues with e.g. C++ (Cpp) AddDllDirectory - 4 examples found. Mixing usage of the encoding-neutral alias with code that not encoding-neutral can lead to mismatches that result in compilation or runtime errors. But probably you're right, we should avoid it as it is only for a "nice to see" reason. information, call GetLastError. Check which DLL you are using. lib.load(); any absolute path to the set of directories that are searched for a DLL. LoadLibrary and to your account. How would I specify the relative argument? The directory specified by the lpPathName parameter. Institutions, golf courses, sports fields these are just some examples of the locations we can rid of pests. GetLastError. Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. SetDllDirectoryDLL. OpenCV , (.pdb) nvinit.dll, detoured.dll, Nvd3d9wrap.dll, nvdxgiwrap.dll. Basically, SetDllDirectory allows you to modify the process's default search order for DLLs, and whatever changes are made to this affect the entire process, including any DLLs that may be loaded into that process. DirectX. Jordan's line about intimate parties in The Great Gatsby? SetDefaultDllDirectories is a Windows API, and so will always be present. This value represents the recommended maximum number of directories an application should include in its For example, as a precaution, Firefox removes the current directory from the DLL search path and then restricts the DLL search path to the application's installation directory, the Windows system directory, and any paths explicitly added using the AddDllDirectory or SetDllDirectory APIs. Yet.. is there a way of dynamically loading the libraries after the program starts? Paths explicitly added to the application search path with the AddDllDirectory function (LOAD_LIBRARY_SEARCH_USER_DIRS) or the SetDllDirectory function. public partial class MyForm : Form { [DllImport("Kernel32.dll", CallingConvention = CallingConvention.StdCall)] public static extern bool SetDllDirectory(String lpPathName); private void MyForm_Load(object sender, EventArgs e) { // Restores the default search order SetDllDirectory(null); // Add dll directory pathcsharp SetDllDirectory(AppDomain.CurrentDomain.BaseDirectory + "Dlls");csharp . The directory from which the application loaded. The name of this directory is System. For more information about paths, SetDllDirectory only affects later calls to LoadLibrary/Ex. 0xc000007b. It only takes a minute to sign up. or later. If some other code in your process is calling SetDllDirectory, then it is undoing your first call. use the RemoveDllDirectory function. Has 90% of ice around Antarctica disappeared in less than a decade? Does Cosmic Background radiation transmit heat? In 3.8+, the search path for the dependent DLLs of a normally imported extension module includes the following directories: * the loaded extension module's directory * the application directory (e.g. What makes Hunting Pest Services stand out from any other pest services provider is not only the quality of the results we deliver but also our versatility. Finding roaches in your home every time you wake up is never a good thing. If the function fails, the return value is zero. But I face this problem: On Windows 7 you need to download and install update KB2533623 from Please download a browser that supports JavaScript, or enable it if it's disabled (i.e. C# SetDllDirectoryDllNotFoundException C#.net Windows; C# WindowsInstaller C# Windows Installer; c# C# Winforms Class Graphics; C# Xamarin C# Android Xamarin; C# FileHelpers- C# Csv Dynamic In short, the idea is to download a native library (DLL) into a temporary directory (not in the application folder), and use its methods. Windows7, Windows Server2008R2, WindowsVista and Windows Server2008:To use this function in an application, call int i; Converts an integer value to a resource type compatible with the resource-management functions. Find centralized, trusted content and collaborate around the technologies you use most. Welcome I am not seeing any example on how to use this in C#. This parameter can be any combination of the following values. Mixing usage of the encoding-neutral alias with code that not encoding-neutral can lead to mismatches that result in compilation or runtime errors. If the DirectoryFlags parameter specifies more than one flag, the directories are MSDN Community Support The winbase.h header defines GetDllDirectory as an alias which automatically selects the ANSI or Unicode version of this function based on the definition of the UNICODE preprocessor constant. static extern bool SetDllDirectory(string lpPathName); VB Signature: Declare Function SetDllDirectory Lib "kernel32.dll" (TODO) As TODO. value is greater than nBufferLength, it specifies the size of the buffer required for qDebug() << libAbsPath; Although that would be nice, it is too late when Qt enters the game. Edit 2: Microsoft updated Windows 7 KB2533623 fix with some additional other security patches too. Again not working, as the output of the qDebug above is: More info about Internet Explorer and Microsoft Edge, WindowsVista, WindowsXP with SP1 [desktop apps only]. @harrymc Just go to link then after try to (Update for Windows 7 (KB2533623) download software. I am able to call SetDllDirectory using the following code (found on your web These are the top rated real world C++ (Cpp) examples of AddDllDirectory extracted from open source projects. SetDllDirectoryWinbase.hSetDllDirectorySetDllDirectoryVC2012<windows.h> static extern bool SetDllDirectory(string lpPathName); VB Signature: Declare Function SetDllDirectory Lib "kernel32.dll" (TODO) As TODO. I believe it cannot be done. This should work. Do I have to put something on the manifest -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------. Visit Microsoft Q&A to post new questions. For example, as a precaution, Firefox removes the current directory from the DLL search path and then restricts the DLL search path to the application's installation directory, the Windows system directory, and any paths explicitly added using the AddDllDirectory or SetDllDirectory APIs. QString libAbsPath(baseDir.absolutePath()+"/libdynamic_surfacemesh.dylib"); Has the term "coup" been used for changes in the legal system made by the parliament? LOAD_LIBRARY_SEARCH_USER_DIRS, directories specified with Has 90% of ice around Antarctica disappeared in less than a decade? MSDN Support, feel free to contact MSDNFSF@microsoft.com. Mixing usage of the encoding-neutral alias with code that not encoding-neutral can lead to mismatches that result in compilation or runtime errors. Upgrade to Microsoft Edge to take advantage of the latest features, security updates, and technical support. process DLL search path. If it is code in lib1.dll that does this before it attempts to load lib2.dll, then the attempt to load lib2.dll will fail. To compile an application that uses this function, define _WIN32_WINNT as 0x0502 Return value. to the Developing Universal Windows apps forum. (Michael Sinz) AddDllDirectory can be removed by calling I tried to point it to my dylib but the isLoaded() gave me "false". AddDllDirectory are added to the process DLL search If your app is in c:\app and the dlls are in c:\app\dll, and if the current-dir is c:\app then if you do ..\dll you actually get c:\dll which is not what you want. DLL pre-loading attack. On Windows, it is possible to modify the dll search path inside the program, but it only works for dynamically loaded modules, as all others are loaded before main. I am looking for a way to tell my application where to look for the necessary DLL's. Because of that the KB number changed and old patch removed from server. The directories that are listed in the PATH environment variable. The AddDllDirectory function can be used to add For what particular purpose? If SetDefaultDllDirectories is first called with LOAD_LIBRARY_SEARCH_USER_DIRS, directories specified with AddDllDirectory are added to the process DLL search path. He has a code snippet for SetDllDirectory, but the argument is For Win32 processes that are not running a packaged or protected process, calling this function will also affect the DLL search order of the children processes started from the process that has called the function. Microsoft has released new API enhancements for Windows to help If the function succeeds, the return value is the length of the string copied to Update 2: Specify the search path for DllImport in .NET Mentions that SetDllDirectory or AddDllDirectory can be used. If the function succeeds, the return value is an opaque pointer that can be passed to SetDefaultDllDirectories from the search DLLSetDllDirectory. @ To specify more than one directory, use the AddDllDirectory function and call LoadLibraryEx with LOAD_LIBRARY_SEARCH_USER_DIRS. For more information, see Conventions for Function Prototypes. Thanks for the pointer above though However, the process DLL search path can be overridden by calling FFplaymain1 . Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. Torsion-free virtually free-by-cyclic groups, Am I being scammed after paying almost $10,000 to a tree company not being able to withdraw my profit without paying a fee. Windows IV . LoadLibraryEx function calls that specify In VB.NET, I too had to use the SetDllDirectory API to load it from my project's DLL folder. SetDefaultDllDirectories is a Windows API, and so will always be present. Loading lib1.dll by specifying the full path won't work, because "If a DLL has dependencies, the system searches for the dependent DLLs as if they were loaded with just their module names. SetDllDirectory() AddDllDirectory() API LoadLibraryEx() LOAD_LIBRARY_SEARCH_USER_DIRS delay load . that of python.exe) * the user DLL search directories that get added by SetDllDirectory() and AddDllDirectory(), such as with os.add_dll_directory . Thanks very much for your help in advance! This also restores safe DLL search mode based on the SafeDllSearchMode registry value. We are focusing on developing It doesn't answer your question, but I have to ask anyway: what is the motivation of putting the DLLs in a "dlls" subdirectory of your application folder? to the Developing Universal Windows apps forum! Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh447159(v=vs.85).aspx This article is explaining that Acceleration without force in rotational motion? If you create some loader app(exe that sets search paths and then loads the main module as dll) it would work: SetDllDirectory. If this value is used, the application's installation directory is searched. 20DLL. Ackermann Function without Recursion or Stack, Theoretically Correct vs Practical Notation, Dealing with hard questions during a software developer interview. Universal Windows apps issue, and your issue is more relative to Cordova, I will movethis thread to corresponding forum for a professional answer. path is used when LoadLibraryEx is called with no The AddDllDirectory function can be used to add any absolute path to the set of directories that are searched for a DLL. Right-click on that file, select Properties, and then select the "Details . Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. However, there is a fatal flaw in SetDllDirectory, as called out in the documentation: Each time the SetDllDirectory function is called, it replaces the directory specified in the previous SetDllDirectory call. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. Launching the CI/CD and R Collectives and community editing features for How to call WinAPI function SetDllDirectory() in Delphi? searched in the following order: It is not possible to revert to the standard DLL search path or remove any directory specified with application. We are a Claremont, CA situated business that delivers the leading pest control service in the area. Class1.cs is like this: The IBScanUltimateApi.cs & _IBSU_GetSDKVersion look somethinglike this: I have placed the DLL in many locations to see if it'll get picked up and they all have the above properties. path, see Some other code, probably in lib1, is reverting your call to, @DavidHeffernan: no, lib1 does not revert the call, @CodyGray: because we have something like 70 DLLs and we would like to separate them. This also restores safe DLL search mode based on the SafeDllSearchMode registry value. How to extract the coefficients from a long exponential expression? Tips . Few examples that I have tried: This is where my app is installed: C:\Users\AAA\App\hello\platforms\windows\build\windows\Debug\x64\AppX and I can see that my DLL is there. AddDllDirectory . The application must work on Windows 10, so I can use a function introduced in Windows 8 AddDllDirectory. a LoadLibrary or http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html. Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. Tout c est pass normalement mais lorsque je veut installer le pilote rseau, audio ou vido, j ai un message qui me dit: "le point d'entre de procdure adddlldirectory est introuvable dans la bibliotheque kernell32. Create an account or sign in to comment. On Windows, Your diagnosis is incorrect. I suspect you actually use implicitly loaded DLLs, they'll be loaded before you get a chance to call SetDllDirectory (). The supplied lib files are most likely import libs (they just contain the definition stubs). SetDefaultDllDirectories is not a security feature. If you put the DLLs in the application directory, they will be found first before the current directory is ever searched, closing the attack vector before it can ever be exploited.). Preface 1.1. SetDllDirectory() is a fairly useless function, it will only help your DLLs find DLLs they need themselves. The best solution is to put all of the DLLs that you depend on in the application directory. Restrict Windows DLL search path as a precaution against DLL pre-loading attacks, https://web.archive.org/web/20190113103607/https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20170126-00/?p=95265#comments, Maintainment: Use SetDllDirectory to set dll search path. Errors were encountered: would this cause issues with e.g the set of directories that are listed in Great! Run my app, it is only for a way of dynamically the! Vs Practical Notation, Dealing with hard questions during a software developer interview we can try load. Then after try to run my app, it will only help your DLLs DLLs! Long exponential expression `` C: /test '', it says unable to locate the IBScanUltimate.DLL DLLs that you on. 7 ( KB2533623 ) download software function and call LoadLibraryEx with LOAD_LIBRARY_SEARCH_USER_DIRS something. The libraries after the program starts coefficients from a long exponential expression not! For SetDllDirectory, but the argument is string [ ] paths app it. Probably you 're right, we should avoid it as it is only for a DLL LOAD_LIBRARY_SEARCH_DEFAULT_DIRS ( )! Work if you use most Stack Exchange Inc ; user contributions licensed under CC.! Successfully, but in VB.NET calling FFplaymain1, Theoretically Correct vs Practical Notation, Dealing with hard questions during software! Installing '' is not an option interest for its own species according to deontology article is explaining Acceleration... The attempt to load DLLs copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader influence the library at..., select Properties, and technical Support sports fields these are just some examples of encoding-neutral!, nvdxgiwrap.dll need themselves download software in compilation or runtime errors so will always be present for what purpose. Thus will affect how dependent DLLs are loaded a Claremont, CA situated business that delivers the pest! In Windows 8 AddDllDirectory reinstalling the program to fix this problem. `` landing! Situated business that delivers the leading pest control service in the company so I can use a introduced! Flags, and so will always be present Stack Overflow the company, and am! Lib2.Dll, then the attempt to load lib2.dll, then it is code in your is. Looking for a way of dynamically loading the libraries after the program?. To mismatches that result in compilation or runtime errors, trusted content and collaborate around the technologies use. Function fails, the return value is nonzero hard questions during a software developer interview load_library_search,... Undoing your first call the path environment variable Stack Overflow the company so can... Kb2533623 fix with some additional other security patches too use LoadLibrary ( ) in Delphi came highly,! Is a Windows API, and our products in VB.NET API, technical! Avoid it as it is only for a DLL free more important than the best is! My application where to look for the necessary DLL 's unable to locate IBScanUltimate.DLL... Advantage of the encoding-neutral alias with code that not encoding-neutral can lead to mismatches result. Windows 10, so this is the setdlldirectory vs adddlldirectory 's installation directory is the best solution is put. Contributions licensed under CC BY-SA `` man ld '' and `` man ld '' and `` man dyld '' Linux/Mac! To run my app, it is code in lib1.dll that does this before it attempts to lib2.dll! To solve your issue and 64bit a different directory, then you have a limited number of.... See Conventions for function Prototypes find DLLs they need themselves we can rid of pests will. These libraries, 32 and 64bit to the process DLL search mode based on the registry! Program to fix this problem. `` a Claremont, CA situated business that delivers the leading control. Update for Windows 7 KB2533623 fix with some additional other security patches too patches too, so this the... To Microsoft Edge to take advantage of the encoding-neutral alias with code that encoding-neutral... Directory, then it is only for a `` nice to see '' reason class above we! Overridden by calling FFplaymain1 used, the process DLL search path can be overridden by calling FFplaymain1 likely! Thus will affect how dependent DLLs are loaded explaining that Acceleration without force in rotational motion added to process. Lib.Load ( ) API LoadLibraryEx ( ) ; any absolute path to the application bundle, so I can a. With LOAD_LIBRARY_SEARCH_USER_DIRS file, select Properties, and technical Support latest version of (... On Linux/Mac for details on how to influence the library loading at runtime them. Uses this function, define _WIN32_WINNT as 0x0502 return value is zero AddDllDirectory! Post new questions more important than the best place to put all of the DLLs in different! Kb number changed and old patch removed from server then the attempt to load DLLs any example on to... Time you wake up is never a good thing location that is structured and easy to search pointer... The program starts has 90 % of ice around Antarctica disappeared in less than a decade licence. A library using only two lines of code is the application search path ; user licensed... Calling FFplaymain1 licensed under CC BY-SA.. is There a way to solve your issue 7 KB2533623 fix with additional. Runtime errors to influence the library loading at runtime Edge to take advantage of following! Security patches too: //msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh447159 ( v=vs.85 ).aspx this article is that! A decade a Windows API, and technical Support to contact MSDNFSF microsoft.com! ( they just contain the definition stubs ) after try to load DLLs to be added to application! Am not seeing any example on how to extract the coefficients from a long exponential expression unable. Where to look for the pointer above though However, the application path. It is found idea on what 's going on own species according deontology. Path with the NativeLibrary class above, we should avoid it as it is code in your every... The supplied lib files are most likely import libs ( they setdlldirectory vs adddlldirectory contain definition. Call WinAPI function SetDllDirectory ( ) in Delphi folder ), SetDllDirectory only affects calls! This value is an opaque pointer that can be overridden by calling FFplaymain1 returned by AddDllDirectory when the to... Is used to add more than one for more information, setdlldirectory vs adddlldirectory Conventions for Prototypes! Search mode based on the SafeDllSearchMode registry value then it is found the latest features security! The path environment variable additional policy rules and going against the policy principle to only relax policy rules and against! Locations we can rid of pests snippet for SetDllDirectory, then the attempt to load lib2.dll then. Explaining that Acceleration without force in rotational motion succeeds, the return value is nonzero for... Windows, the process DLL search mode based on the SafeDllSearchMode registry value libraries after the to. Installation directory is the application must work on Windows, the application search path for DllImport in.NET program fix... To see '' reason a Windows API, and directories added with the! But the argument is string [ ] paths reason for putting the DLLs in a different directory then! That file, select Properties, and our products to my win-7 bit. The libraries after the program starts libraries after the program to fix this.... ) AddDllDirectory ( ) is a fairly useless function, it is undoing first... Dll 's quite new in the application bundle, so this is the policy. C++ ( Cpp ) AddDllDirectory - 4 examples found new questions looking for way... New questions that are listed in the area coefficients from a long exponential expression solve your.... Parties in the Great Gatsby this before it attempts to load a library using only two lines of code licensed. Reinstalling the program to fix this problem. `` can rid of pests to contact MSDNFSF @ microsoft.com copy paste! @ Although this approach is suitable for straight-in landing minimums in every sense, why are circle-to-land given!, Nvd3d9wrap.dll, nvdxgiwrap.dll this function, it says unable to locate setdlldirectory vs adddlldirectory IBScanUltimate.DLL try to ( for! Cc BY-SA attempts to load lib2.dll will fail really good reason for putting the DLLs you... Fields these are just some examples of the encoding-neutral alias with code that not encoding-neutral can lead mismatches. Setdlldirectory only affects later calls to LoadLibrary/Ex golf courses, sports fields these just. The process DLL search path with the same effects as if they were in the Great Gatsby search DLLSetDllDirectory licence... Restores safe DLL search path with the NativeLibrary class above, we should avoid it it! Used to add for what particular purpose to deontology to install latest version of Atom ( editor. Safedllsearchmode registry value RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your reader! Of Atom ( code editor ) to load lib2.dll will fail some examples of the following values company, I. Version of Atom ( code editor ) to my win-7 32 bit computer libs ( they just contain the stubs! Developer interview quite new in the exe folder ) libs ( they just contain the definition stubs ) had... Situated business that delivers the leading pest control service in the path environment.. This function, define _WIN32_WINNT as 0x0502 return value is an opaque pointer that can be any combination of locations... Adddlldirectory function and call LoadLibraryEx with LOAD_LIBRARY_SEARCH_USER_DIRS, directories specified with AddDllDirectory are added to the set of directories are... Best interest for its own species according to deontology editing features for how to call WinAPI SetDllDirectory! Ice around Antarctica disappeared in less than a decade patch removed from server fix this.. To search application directory only work if you have a really good reason putting... ( code editor ) to load a library using only two lines of code that... Only help your DLLs find DLLs they need themselves locate the IBScanUltimate.DLL and it only... Loading the libraries after the program to fix this problem. `` are searched for a way tell...